Power Exchange Levels with Kim

Note: This was originally a live discussion group. Anything expressed below is personal opinion and based on personal experience. There is a wide diversity in the BDSM community, and we like it that way. Also, the information for Power Exchange Levels is taken directly from "Screw the Roses, Send Me the Thorns" by Philip Miller and Molly Devon. There is no substitution for purchasing this wonderful book! This one is a must have! Kim is the Office Manager for Mystic Rose, the publishing company of "Screw the Roses, Send Me the Thorns."

MistressKim says: There are 5 levels of power in a BDSM relationship... different levels we move through. These are NOT written in stone. They are general guidelines that were put to paper to form some sort of starting point for negotiations. You may find you have a level 1 relationship with a few elements of level 2... or any other variation. The important thing is there ARE different levels of trust/power transfer and knowing about them helps us be better negotiators.

The first level is called Conditional Compliance. This means we meet at a dungeon party...you look yummy, I look yummy, we agree to have a scene. We negotiate everything, and this often has SERIOUS careful limits. A frequent one is "no touching below the waist" When I train someone (who is not my sub, IRL) they often wear jeans. It's not about sex...it's about showing them the tools and how to use it right. Subs typically do not "fly" at this level. The sub is expected to stay alert enough to safeword at the first sign of trouble. This means subs don't let themselves get deep enough to be pre-verbal. This is a courtesy to the dominant, because we've never played with you before, we do NOT know your warning signs! Do you become quiet or loud when you start to get into trouble... we just don't know? We rely on YOU at this level more than how well we know you (which plays a big part later on, and you can slip into those delicious feelings deeper). The dominant does NOT push limits at this stage. Playing with the edges of limits is fun, but not appropriate here. This is about immediate gratification. You are at the mall, you see the dress, you buy the dress. period.

jezebel asks: you mentioned the sub didn't "fly" at this point.. what did you mean by fly?
MistressKim says: "flying" is something that happens in subspace. Not always, not even often for some subs... But when it does, it's phenomenal. It actually feels like you leave your body and are flying. That's the only way to explain it. It happens typically with subs who are very connected with their dominants...
jezebel asks: I get it.. *nod* thanks.
MistressKim says: and I've never heard of it happening to a sub who is into "submission" for the body sensation only. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the sub who is sub to get the flogging they love, and that alone... But it has been my experience that it happens with folks who are filling a deep emotional need by being sub, not just a physical need. Re-emphasizes...my personal experience. Not necessarily a "truism"

Winterhart asks: Would you please tell me what sorta things are done on level one? Just a few examples
MistressKim says: Anything we both agree to. blindfolding the sub...maybe spanking... Flogging (probably lightly, since the dom doesn't know where your light starts and heavy starts) Tickling...clamps... more of a focus on sensation and fun. light.

Rhea asks: how many levels are there?
MistressKim says: 5
Rhea says: whoa

MistressKim says: level 2 is Restricted Ongoing Acquiescence I like you, you like me, we want to play again. As a matter of fact, we'd like to play more often! Now we may do role-playing.... Oh boy, I find out you like to be the captured princess and I'm going to be the evil queen from another nation. yum! The sub makes themselves more vulnerable (sharing about yourself is always vulnerable) but the sub doesn't have any emotional independence on the dominant. I'm probably not the person you call at midnight in a crisis. The sub may accept small tasks... (clean my dishes, please!) or little "play" punishments. Not discipline. The dominant doesn't do it if it doesn't enhance the sub's fantasy pleasure and vice versa. So I wouldn't be doing temporary piercing on you if you have zero interest...just because it pleases me and because it isn't a limit of yours. We start to know each other better, and naturally our play is enhanced by that. At this point, my partner may still be wearing those jeans! And with the dress analogy...if you buy the dress I may spank you for it if you think that's fun. <wink> naughty naughty "punishment" stuff. I may "force" you...but if I force you it's because you've said "golly, I'd love you to 'force' me to dress up in feathers and gherkin pickles" so I do, if that's also my thing.

jezebel giggles.. ok.. slightly unrelated.. but what's temporary piercing?
MistressKim says: Temporary piercing is when I pierce the skin but we don't keep a ring in it. We remove the piercing tool and let it heal. The palm of your hand, the first few layers are a good place to try. they're tough and ready to be shed and you can slip a needle under there without much pain at all. psychological thriller without the pain if you will. I'm talking the heel of your hand, not the more tender center of your palm

Winterhart asks: This level is to just get to know each other better without emotional entanglements?
MistressKim says: yes. Although any time we enter a friendship like this there are emotional entanglements... At this level the sub isn't wearing the dominant's collar. We might have a partner with whom we stay at this level forever with lots of fun.

MistressKim says: Level 3 Provisional Submission. We really really care about each other now. I worry if you aren't home when you say you will be. You fuss when I have the flu. Not necessarily living together at all...if I call you and you're not home yet I envision along with your mother you're dead in a ditch somewhere. Now we devote time and energy to each other... and this includes devotion to each other's emotional well being. Often includes sexual well being...but sex is never assumed to be a part of any level. Now we've worked hard to understand what makes each other tick. I know what makes you flush with pleasure, you know what lights my rockets, and you know how to push my buttons. Screw the Roses, Send me the Thorns says "the sub will not have any real emotional dependence upon the dominant except during the course of a scene" but you decide for yourself if that's already happening here or not. At this point the dominant gets to make some minor restrictions. Discipline and deep humiliation still doesn't happen at this level. Maybe some minor penalties for violations. "You may not say 'hello' when you answer the phone today." I call you up, you say "hello" instead of "this is Nancy" or whatever... GUESS who gets a spanking that night! Yum. I can tell you not to buy the dress at this point...if the dress is for fun. You see it, you want it, I say no. You can still buy it if you don't think that's minor enough (but I'll still tell you it's ugly). The submissive often experiences deep feelings of submission during a scene and I know you well enough now for that to be safe... but I will absolutely not take advantage of you in this state. That would include pushing limits here. I can assign you tasks, but nothing you'll have to put a lot of time into or a lot of resources (read $$). I can force you...but I only do so if what I know about you indicates you'd like it and at any sign of discomfort I back off. If we're not scening...I may "suggest." So if we're not going to the mall "in scene" I can't tell you not to buy the dress. (but I'll still say it's ugly) The sub is responsible for clear communication about limits, and helping me understand them. The sub also often attempts to behave in a manner pleasing to the dominant for the dominant's approval. For example, I like kneeling hands behind the head, you've always done with hands on knees...you might switch to make me smile. At this point the submissive really respects the dominant. It's been earned. We never give trust lightly. We measure success here in terms of emotional satisfaction as well as immediate "whoopee!" We both have changed ourselves to be together, at least a little, and to make each other content. Again, you can have someone who is a partner forever at level 3 and have tons of fun.

MistressKim says: 4: The Covenant of Dominance and Submission You know it when you see it. Deep emotional involvement and mutual devotion. We both want to satisfy each other and fulfill each other (often including sex, but not always). Often, we're in love. In "lifestyle" relationships the daily life retains some, or a lot, of the dom/sub flavor. Any title the sub calls the dominant is said with deep feeling, not just a title. We feel responsibility to each other. At this level it is appropriate to have a symbol of our bond... done by many with collaring, or body modification. 

A note on collaring...subs often wear "training collars" when they start...because it's important to have the collar to them. I personally do use training collars. If nothing else it's a symbol at the lower levels of when D/s starts and ends. Helps avoid confusion. When it's on...we're D/s...off, we're equals. It means more than that at level 4. We love and understand each other at this level. We do things that are not immediately enjoyable for the long term good of the relationship and each other. This means discipline. The sub has some emotional dependence, and the dom accepts and welcomes the responsibility for that. This does not mean the sub is a doormat. The dominant has the right to place restrictions and give instruction. Deep sub feelings here. The dominant is always careful about the sub's emotional and psychological well being. We may push limits seriously at this point. The dom assigns tasks that may take more amounts of time or resources. In return the dom devotes a lot of time and resources to the sub. This is not a "let's take advantage of the sub" situation. At this point the sub may ask "think I can swing the $$ for this new dress?" and will respect my decision. The dominant wants to protect, help, and care for the sub. The sub is still responsible for helping the dom understand limits, needs, triggers. We must have clear communication or the dom can't nurture the sub properly! The sub has to make SURE the submissive feelings don't interfere with being honest, even when honest isn't a typical "sub" answer. The sub often sinks into sub feelings that make him/her temporarily dependent on the dom. Dependent on the dom's judgment. But the sub must maintain their own integrity and independence as a person. If we wanted robots we'd make robots. Sub has a strong desire to please the dom, frequently defers to the dom's judgment, and agrees to obey some orders (reasonable...cut off your right arm does not count). The sub internalizes the dom's style... Which is why you can tell who owns a sub even without the profile, just based on the sub's style...it reflects the dominant... and the sub has deep feelings of respect for the dom's opinions and desires. (this one goes both ways of course)

Selaria asks: okie.. this restriction thing.. its more of a comment or confusion.. when you used the example of buying the dress and he says no, and I respect it.. isn't that just a mutual thing? not anything BDSM? or what if I WANT to buy the dress AND I DO buy the dress.. does that give him the right to discipline me?
MistressKim says: if it's part of your agreement, sure. If finances are kept OUT of your BDSM agreement, no. Everything is negotiable.
Selaria asks: so making an agreement, is VERY important I take it?
MistressKim says: I just have to choose some sort of example, and that one seems silly and harmless. <smile> Yes. the agreement is paramount. My BDSM arrangement with X includes financial. I can veto a purchase of his, and have. That's behavior modification. He has a lot more in the bank now. But he didn't have to agree to let me do that. We negotiated it. I manage money better than he does...he wants to manage money better, we're working on behavior modification. If X managed money better than I do, I would be going to him for help, because he does have skills I don't. It just so happens in that example I have better skills at that one item than he does and we've incorporated it into our BDSM relationship.

Winterhart asks: What if you don't know what type of agreements to set? What if one of you decides that you want to add one...is that then negotiable
MistressKim says: either you fumble about and figure out what works best for you, or you talk to someone who's experienced it and STILL fumble about and figure out what works best for you. Relationships are renegotiated constantly. BDSM is no different. When I went to school on top of my full time job Ketzer did everything around the house for years. shopping, laundry, dishes, you name it. He said "school is your part time job and the house will be mine." When school ended you bet we renegotiated.

Selaria asks: is that where the conflict comes in.. is when the sub feels she should stand up to the dom? I feel that it would cause some conflict.. for me at least. How does one do that.. just with negotiation?
MistressKim says: In Screw the Roses, Send Me the Thorns they explicitly state the sub cannot let their feelings of submission keep them from being honest. If that honesty includes "Kim, I think, respectfully, that you're wrong here" I want to hear it. I'd rather not hear "Kim you're a moron"...but you don't do that in any relationship if you've got mutual love and respect. WH asked about if someone wants to add additional things... Yes WH, you open up the discussion for...oh..." I want orgasm control to be part of our BDSM relationship" and it goes from there. May or may not get added.

Fairlady asks: MK is it a good idea when entering a new relationship to have a kinda debriefing after those early scenes..? kinda like oh this did not work for me can we workon it?
MistressKim says: At the early stages you should definitely be doing things that bring mutual instant gratification type enjoyment...per Screw the Roses. Me personally...I can see where you're coming from and yes, I think those "after" discussions are important. But again, that's just my opinion...and everyone's got one. I personally find the "after" discussions/cuddling vital to BDSM. But that's me.

MistressKim says: level 5 is Absolute Ownership. Hold onto your hats. The sub totally adores and has total obedience to the dominant. The dom is the most important person in the sub's life. They want to give their obedience, deference, devotion absolutely, always. The dom can do whatever they want with their property. When I tire of you, I can sell you. Any errors or mistakes or disobedience is met with discipline, at the dom's whim and fancy. The sub is trained to obey and even anticipate the dom's needs/wishes. The sub welcomes correction always if they fail to live up to the dom's expectations. The sub's pleasure comes from pleasing the dom, and they have no relevant needs of their own. The sub has no burden of worrying about their own welfare, the ONLY concern is the dom. In Screw the Roses, they say "this is fantasy-time folks". I want a sub who has a brain and thinks for themselves. If the sub is that emotionally needy and dependent, I'm afraid I'd get bored very quickly. Screw the Roses says "We might belabor the point of how damaging this kind of relationship could be, were we not already certain that those attempting this are already pretty psychologically damaged." Let me mention, however, that I personally use one element from this level, and that's anticipation of needs. My subs get an incredible rush out of knowing when to bring me a soda...before I even realize I want one. Or when to light me a cigarette just when I'm starting to think "that would taste good" It's something my subs like. We don't do it always, but on those days they want to serve me like that it's very gratifying for them to be that in tune with me.

Eilan asks: At this level, doesn't the person become an object? if not, what keeps them from becoming that door mat? Eilan finds it scary
MistressKim says: They are a doormat. they are property at this level. Which is why Molly & Philip made it so clear that in their opinion, this is the stuff left to the fantasy world.

Grateful asks: On what level does ss or subspace usually show itself?
MistressKim says: level 1, but not so deep the sub can't quickly get a safeword out. "Skimming subspace" if you will. <smile> And not necessarily. It's just what Philip & Molly have defined as a place to start talking.

Eilan asks: Can a person be at level 5 state w/o actually being in a relationship with anyone?
MistressKim says: I don't know. I've never met anyone at that level. It's beyond my experience or comprehension, to be honest. Even victims have other things that are important to them than one person.

Fairlady asks: would it be fair to say that level 5 is very rare ..??
MistressKim says: It would be fair to say that Philip & Molly think it only happens with very very damaged people. I cannot say how rare it is. I have never personally seen it, but there's a lot I haven't seen.